Desperate Houseflies: The Magazine

Feel free to pull out your trusty fly swatter and comment on what is posted here, realizing that this odd collection of writers may prove as difficult to kill as houseflies and are presumably just as pesky. “Desperate Houseflies” is a magazine that intends to publish weekly articles on subjects such as politics, literature, history, sports, photography, religion, and no telling what else. We’ll see what happens.

Tuesday, August 02, 2005

Part Two of Three

Okay, I’m back, and here is the back story to last week’s entry: After I had written much of my first post, I was poking around on the blog and read the long discussion that followed Al’s posting of the John Danforth op-ed from the New York Times (which I had sent to him, actually, provoking controversy on these pages before my presence became official). I found it interesting that the conversation quickly became fixated on same-sex marriage – and I was shocked and disturbed by some of what was said. Then I realized that my Prologue contained two separate stories relating to the issue of homosexuality. I had started a little list of topics I wanted to write about, and same-sex marriage wasn’t even on it. But clearly it’s on people’s minds, so I thought I would dive in. In the process, I realized that my thoughts on same-sex marriage are incredibly complex. Thus, this is a three-part series rather than one Great-American-Novel-length post. Last week was the Coontz interview as background. This week, I narrate.

In the interest of full disclosure, you should know that I spent over two years doing lesbian and gay rights work, among other things, with the ACLU before and immediately after I graduated from law school. I think this gives me an uncommon level of knowledge and perspective about what the movement’s goals are. First off: “converting children” is decidedly not among them. Advocating for a nation in which gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and the transgendered are treated as full human beings who deserve love, respect, and equality, is. But the remarkable thing about the folks I met in the gay rights legal movement (and the number of lawyers doing impact work is pretty small, so it’s safe to say I met most of them) is how decidedly radical they aren’t. Frankly, I was a little disappointed. I had thought that this was going to be cutting-edge stuff, and everyone was so normal, their goals so modest. I hate to say this because it’s so trite, but they really just want “to be like everyone else” (i.e., have families and community, live peacefully and be happy).

Now, anyone who has gay friends over age 30 will probably tell you some version of the same thing. And by now almost everyone should be acquainted with at least one gay man or lesbian (you know, Mary Cheney and so forth). Which is why the far right’s fears of gay men and lesbians have never failed to mystify me. It took me a lot of research and thought to identify concerns beyond the “ick factor” most self-professed heterosexual men experience when they imagine two men together. (And it is axiomatic that being grossed out by something is not a sufficient reason to outlaw it or to give second-class-citizen status to an entire class of people because of it).

Before I address the theme I believe is at issue, I think it is important to note that (at least in my experience) people who are anti-gay rights rarely attempt to articulate what their concerns are about accepting same-sex relationships. The best that one person close to me could come up with was a sputtering statement that “the parts don’t fit.” That kind of unsophisticated outburst may be fine for drinks around the pool (although I would tend to argue that it isn’t), but it is wholly inadequate when engaging in a public policy debate. I believe it is fair to say that most such debates center around questions of harm – how a law or norm will either prevent or cause harm to people in general or to groups of people. This, in my view, is as it should be, as one of the primary purposes of government is protection of citizens from various types of harm (i.e., the military, police, the FDA, workplace safety standards). And what such an approach means in practical terms is that you can’t just say, “I will not let gays harm my family [by supporting same-sex marriage]” without explaining how and why you believe that will happen. Specifically which gays are going to threaten your family’s well-being? How will they do so? If they will harm you by getting married, why aren’t they harming you by existing? And so on.

My theory about same-sex marriage, based on a great deal of study and reflection, is that the bruhaha is not so much about homosexuality per se as it is about maintaining traditional gender roles. I have expounded on this theory at length elsewhere (See Reconsidering the Gender-Equality Perspective for Understanding LGBT Rights, 13 Law & Sexuality 605 (2004)). Discussing it here is tricky because I’m trying to condense a lot into a few short paragraphs, but here are my basic points:

► “Sexual orientation” is a relatively recent concept that developed in response to historical changes in women’s rights, status, and liberties. Of course, the behaviors of same-sex sexuality have always existed; but the conception of same-sex attraction as an identity did not begin to arise until the 17th century for men, and the late 19th century for women. The rise of “sexology” in the late 19th century gradually gave these identities the name “homosexual” and defined them in terms of defying gender-based norms of proper behavior and appearance, same-sex sexuality being one among many traits giving rise to the diagnosis.

► Gender nonconformity and same-sex orientation are often confused or conflated with each other. For example, people often assume that a woman with very short hair and no makeup is a lesbian, or that a man with a high voice is gay – without any personal knowledge of the individual’s sexuality. These are gender-based cues, resting on the assumptions that women should have longer hair and wear cosmetics in order to be appropriately feminine, and that men should have low voices in order to be appropriately masculine (and these are a few examples among many, many others). This isn’t necessarily an indictment of making those assumptions – gendered expectations of people are deeply embedded in our culture – just pointing out that they are made based on gendered traits rather than sexual ones.

► Being intimate with members of the other sex, and not with one’s own sex, is one aspect of gender-role expectations in our culture. In other words, having sex with men is something that women are expected to do in order to be considered “real” women, and vice versa for men. [There’s some really disturbing history that goes along with this having to do with rape and misogyny that, if I were to try to explain it, would require me to say things that would curl your hair, so I’ll leave this point at that for now since the history lesson is not necessary for the purposes of this discussion.]

► Finally, our culture’s movement toward equality for gays did not develop in a vacuum. It is not a coincidence that greater acceptance and visibility of same-sex relationships began to occur at about the same time as the second-wave women’s movement in the late 1960s and 1970s. Far-right organizations such as the Family Research Council are not factually wrong when they make this connection, as well as connecting acceptance of gay rights with acceptance of premarital sex, divorce, single parenthood, and abortion. What do all of these things have in common? It is obvious to me: all of the above issues relate to gender, and more specifically the ways in which marriage as a social institution and as a personal relationship no longer limits women’s (or men’s!) range of life possibilities as it once did. With respect to gay rights, the connection is: In previous generations, people who were gay used to marry people of the opposite sex in order to have a reasonably peaceful life – living as an out gay man or lesbian was not a realistic option for most. Now it is not only a realistic option, but increasingly has replaced passing as the more desirable option. This was made possible by the changes in the twentieth century that freed women from the necessity of marriage and motherhood. Certainly there is debate on the merits of these changes, but it is impossible conceptually disconnect gay rights and women’s rights.

So, in my view, the reason that the marriage issue, rather than the repeal of sodomy laws or the popularity of Will & Grace, has become the lightning rod is because of preexisting anxiety about male-female marriage caused by the precise things listed above, plus the movement of women into the workforce (which provided the financial independence that was a necessary precondition for the proliferation of divorce, prolonged singlehood, single motherhood, and so on). Many people are still reeling from all of these social changes – they have not accepted or adapted to them. And for those people, marriage is a vulnerable and embattled institution on the brink of extinction. One more change, the Dobsons of the world believe, will push marriage, family, and community into the dustbin of history.

How same-sex marriage will cause this to occur is not exactly intuitive. As many same-sex marriage advocates have pointed out, how could it be harmful to a struggling institution to have more people participate in it, believe in it, and promote it? If you believe that marriage and commitment are good for society, why isn’t it better to have more people in committed, long-term relationships?

The way that conservatives typically answer this question is emblematic of my earlier comment about failing to articulate the real concern: everyone’s favorite logical fallacy, the slippery slope. “If two men, why not three men? Why not a man and a dog? Why not six men, two ducks, and a lampshade?” Frankly, I have never seen fit to give this line of thought much more than an eye roll. Certainly it could serve as fodder for an interesting theoretical conversation, but in terms of reality, the likelihood of such proposals is not on the charts, far-right conspiracy theories notwithstanding.

So the bestiality/polygamy argument seems to me a red herring, a way of saying, “if we let this happen, what’s to stop people from doing absolutely anything that strikes their fancy?” The biggest and most real source of this anxiety, though, is not what could happen, but what has already happened. It’s just easier to slow down the engines of social change than to throw the whole train in reverse – i.e., it’s easier to make gays the scapegoat for the changes that have been occurred with respect to marriage than to point the finger at your relatives, friends, and neighbors who are divorced, who cohabitate, or who are single parents. And it is also really easy to see these anxiety-provoking behaviors as individual moral failings instead of changes that have occurred on a societal level and for reasons that have everything to do with the movement toward women’s legal, political, and social equality. That doesn’t make them unequivocally good things in and of themselves. But it does mean that we have to understand and evaluate them in the context of how and why they occurred. And that includes recognizing same-sex marriage and increasing acceptance of same-sex relationships as of a piece with other changes in the stringency and centrality of gender roles in our society.

Next week I’ll talk about the purposes and merits of government recognition of intimate relationships.

P.S. I haven’t had time to do much commenting in the past week, but I have been reading the comments and just want to say that I have been really impressed with the respect and courtesy reflected therein. I look forward to having some very productive conversations with all of you.

27 Comments:

Blogger DeJon Redd said...

Sandi, I'll limit the superlatives re: your post, and say I'm so thankful for your articulate opinion. I've been looking for your perspsective with hopes of fostering healthy dialogue. I hope you'll entertain.

I do not want to denegrate or offend openly gay people or those that wrestle with such feelings when I say this. I see homosexuality as a warped sense of intimacy. I admit I hold highly the traditional family model. Yet I don't believe I'm all that traditional when it comes to gender roles and equality. I have my own reservations about the "Dobsons" approach to legislating the issue.

What say you?

9:10 AM  
Blogger Al Sturgeon said...

Thanks, Sandi. "Six men, two ducks, and a lampshade," huh? My favorite quote... :-)

This may be overly simplistic (especially in light of such a well laid-out intellectual argument), but I've found a quote Mike Cope (a preacher) made back when the "Ellen" show was the big deal to make a lot of sense to me: He said that Christians tend to be most adamant about the things that tempt them the least. And the driving force behind the opposition has been the Christian community it seems, though I could be proven wrong.

I still agree with that quote from Cope... I'm a proponent of equal rights under our Constitution. Not only does the Constitution provide for that, I think its a good thing. Of course, I separate religion from political power, so I see marriage in a couple of different ways.

I'm following your thought pattern, however, and look forward to the big conclusion next week.

DeJon: How would you define "intimacy?" I was trying to think how I would respond to your question, and I found that definition necessary before I could figure out how I'd respond. It's a worthwhile question: can one think homosexuality wrong and still have a healthy view of gender roles? That's the question, right? Sandi can handle the gender role question much better than me I know, but I was trying to follow you on the definition of homosexuality first...

Joe: The "natural" argument is hard to maintain. If we choose that path, than kids need to start getting hitched at about age 13 when their bodies tell them it's sex time. Because something is natural doesn't make it right; in fact, from a Christian perspective (which I know matters to you), the natural is quite often "not" right.

America's legal standard = Everyone deserves equal rights and protection under the way.

Christian standard = As Duane points out, a little complex and open to debate.

Natural standard = Have sex when the urge strikes ya.

Traditional standard = Breadwinner man, stay-at-home mom making cookies, a son, a daughter, a dog, and a lampshade.

1:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can someone please tell what I've been missing with the lampshade?

I am just dying to know!

:) Laughs, giggles, just wanted to be 12 years old for a second.

1:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't equate marriage to the traditional family model. Too many examples of the non-homosexual kind come to mind - Brittany Spears and her 55-hour-long marriage is at the top of the list. And besides, if a couple decides not to have children, or can't have children for one reason or another, is that couple then weakening the "basic unit of society." Or what about single parents? Or co-habitating couples who have children?

Marriage is about affirmation, and establishing a relationship that the law recognizes as the closest of all kinship. The law recognizes that my spouse is my next of kin - not my parents, not my siblings, not my children. Marriage is a relationship that I choose. Isn't it funny how in some states you can disinherit your children but you cannot disinherit your spouse? There is (ideally) no closer bond than a marriage. Shouldn't homosexual couples be able to affirm their relationship without having their love or intimacy judged as less worthy than that of hetereosexuals? Don't get me wrong, I think it's unnatural, but shouldn't it be tolerated (at the very least) because it's socially fair and equitable?

With this topic, it's hard to seperate politics from religion. But God gave us free will. Shouldn't homosexuals be able to choose the lifestyle they desire? How much worse is it when the state recognizes same-sex marriage than the recognition of the right to have an abortion? Or the right to divorce and remarry? Isn't all sin the same?

Just because same-sex marriage is recognized by the government doesn't mean Christians should throw their hands up and say, "Oh well. We've lost the culture war. The time is officially as it was in the days of Noah." I think it means we fight harder. We focus our ministry on the teenage girl who contemplates abortion and the same sex couple who are waiting for their marriage license. And we pray earnestly for them and the choices they make.

3:02 PM  
Blogger Al Sturgeon said...

Not that I know of...

6:44 PM  
Blogger Al Sturgeon said...

Joe, I read the review of Coontz, and I don't know what to write because I've lost track of what we're discussing. My brain is not always functioning at its highest capacity.

I was trying to say that I don't think we should make laws (and correspondingly in our shared belief in Jesus, choose our standards) based upon what is "natural."

I wouldn't argue about the following facts: (a) you can find/notice gender-based tendencies, (b) that men + women make babies and that both feel a somewhat shared responsibility for their babies, and (c) that sex involves emotion.

Still, I return to my statement that I don't think "natural" is a good basis for making standards. It would be natural for me to kill the person that killed my spouse or child. We've agreed in most cultures that this "natural" response isn't necessarily the best way to manage a society.

Looking back at your comments, I'm thinking that your primary concern is that same-gender marriages are harmful somehow. If that's correct, as Sandi requests in her article, we need to articulate the specific harm in play here. Who is being harmed and how?

In your original comment, you give an example and follow-up with your hunch that same-gender-parent families confuse roles and it becomes more about the parents wishes than the well-being of the child. Duane can do this better than me, but if the question involves this, than we'll have to jettison heterosexual marriage, too. I counsel much less than Duane, but I see this ALL the time in heterosexual marriages: confused roles, selfish parents, etc.

7:29 PM  
Blogger Al Sturgeon said...

Back to the spammers, we've had 114 visits today, and over 150 yesterday. I don't care who it is if we keep getting more readers!

(Unless they're spies working on getting me fired.)
:-(

7:38 PM  
Blogger Al Sturgeon said...

Most of the problems I see involve thought systems (expectations of marriage), and most seem to stem from what they saw growing up - but when we get here, we're back to the age-old heredity vs. environment argument. I'll have to ask your family doctor/wife to expound on that one.

I can only imagine the additional emotional hurdles children with same-gender parents must face. At least in the town I grew up in. But I do have a hard time buying that the big hurdles involve neither mommy nor mommy knows how to fix the car - or that both daddies can't breastfeed (okay, I can buy that both daddies can't breastfeed, but... oh, you know what I'm saying...). You ever watch "Full House?" Three daddies seemed to work pretty good on television...

So are you saying that children would be the only ones at-risk in same-gender marriages? Protect the kids, and other than that, it wouldn't be a big deal?

BTW, I really liked Ann's comment - I just forgot to say it. I'm with you, Ann...

8:18 PM  
Blogger JD said...

Three dads work well on television??? geez louize. I'm sure that was for a laff.

Al, you can fix this site where there are no anonymous commenters. If you need help with that, let me know.

8:51 PM  
Blogger Al Sturgeon said...

R&B:

First, you assume everyone in America agrees with your diagnosis of homosexuality as a disorder, calls it a "sin," and is interested in being "about our Father's business." And since that is not true, it seems to debunk your conclusions. The issue at hand is a constitutional one, not a religious one.

I know we're discussing "harm" done to children, which would be legally feasible, but if your conclusions are simply religious in nature, than it isn't supposed to fly in the United States - and I for one hope it doesn't. Theocracies have never seemed to work well, even when God thunders the laws down from a burning mountain.

BTW, which elementary schools are promoting cross-dressing? That's a new one on me. I've been in Vacation Bible Schools where they try to make you wear a dress and claim it makes you look like Abraham or something, but I didn't know cross-dressing was now in public school curriculum... I have a 3rd grader, so I'd be interested in knowing...

Marriage rights = insurance coverage, the right to make decisions for a spouse in the hospital, the right to plan a funeral, etc. Stuff Ann brought up in her comment... Stuff denied homoesexual partners at present in most states...

6:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The "stuff" of marriage that Al refers to was once denied to couples of different races. Christians used scripture to proclaim that interracial marriage was a sin. I'm sure there are plenty of Christians out there who still believe it is a sin for a black man and a white woman to marry.

It took an act of judicial activism by the Supreme Court to strike down anti-miscegenation statutes in Loving. v. Virginia. In the opinion by the lower court in that case, the trial judge stated: "Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

So this naturally should lead to a discussion between race and homosexuality, and whether there is such a significant difference between the two that one classification is protected by our constitution's Equal Protection and Due Process clauses while the other is not.

7:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is my first time to comment on this site, so I'll try to keep it short...
r&b's comments bother me. They shouldn't, because I live in the Bible Belt, but all the same, they do. I am an elementary school teacher. Never have I read to a child Heather Has Two Mommies, nor would I UNLESS (and that's a big one) a student of mine was being tormented by peers about a living arrangement. It's not that I disagree with the message (I happen to agree), it's that I am concerned about parental backlash/lawsuits. I tend to think most schools function under this fear, and would take a similar stance. The GLSEN supposed promotion of cross-dressing activities in the elementary school is absurd. I have never seen or heard of any such activities.
Now that my teacher angst has been addressed, let's move on to the 2 big ethical issues I have with the commentary. The first has already been addressed--SSAD? Is that a medical diagnosis? Can I look in the DSM-IV and find it? I take issue with labeling a behavior a disease. The second issue is that homosexuals are more promiscuous than other groups. I would maintain that youth ages 16-24 are the most promiscuous group, regardless of orientation. Comparing homosexual to heterosexual promiscuity in any kind of research study would be inherently flawed, as you must depend on the total honesty of the survey respondents. Furthermore, any study which would seek to do so would most likely be funded by a group that is less than neutral in the issue. Research 101 says you can get a study to say anything you want it to if you're biased about the results when you begin. To eliminate this bias and the aforementioned flaw in design, you would need to attach sensors to repsondents' "parts" and record the data. I'm guessing that you would not have many respondents under those conditions (barring those that might ENJOY said sensors).
But I digress. As a heterosexual woman in a traditional role with children living in the Bible Belt, I have no problems with allowing gays to marry. No lampshades...I mean, how would they speak their vows?

9:22 AM  
Blogger Al Sturgeon said...

Misgiving #1: If homosexuality is genetic, then there's nothing to have a misgiving about here. You believe it to be a choice, however, but not everyone agrees (including, quite importantly, many of the people in question).

This fact speaks to your response to Ann's question: If it were confirmed to be a "choice," than there might be some validity to the argument separating the two. Not everyone agrees with that, though...

Misgiving #2: Polygamy is a separate issue that can be discussed, but that shifts the focus from this issue. I think Sandi would agree that the "slippery slope" argument only serves to sway emotion and deflect attention from the issue at hand.

To fall for it anyway, as I stated a LONG time ago in a whole different set of comments, polygamy's main legal issue (I believe) has been the mistreatment of women, but that's probably worth debating and quite possibly not able to hold up legally. (Polygamy could be a nice little Bible discussion, too, and would w/o a doubt be an interesting political discussion, but no one at present is pushing that issue that I know of. I don't know of any Polygamy Rights Groups out there, but there might be one.)

9:25 AM  
Blogger Al Sturgeon said...

jamisuem:

Welcome to the comment board! I'll just add my agreement and thanks to what you've written...

9:29 AM  
Blogger Al Sturgeon said...

Good questions. Is the answer making single parenthood illegal?

A serious counterpoint, not meant to sound sarcastic.

10:32 AM  
Blogger DeJon Redd said...

Al, I didn't blow off your questions about the definition of intimacy. This discussion has me rethinking some long held assumptions.

I haven't found a good definition for intimacy. Nor can I define exactly what homosexuality warps. As a man whose opinion I respect, can you tell me homosexuality is a lifestyle that has no ill affect on society, minus the anger and violence vented on the gay community (not the fault of any gay/lesbian)?

I don't know if characterizing homosexuality as a disorder is appropriate. It is obviously offensive to some. Yet it doesn't equate to race or ethnicity either. I believe it is a mistake to make compare homosexuality to anything (NAMBLA, beastuality, disease, psychosis, race, ethnicity.) It is an unique phenomena, and we really suck at dealing with it.

I get just as tired of being force fed homosexuality in the MSM as I tire of the unneccessary backlash to homosexuality (i.e. Dobson's SpongeBob fiasco) While I stongly agree with some of r&b's points, I sense the same venom from your tone. I don't think Christians should be characterized or display such anomosity. (Let me say, I fail in other times and other ways just the same.) But as people attempting to imitate Jesus, we too often let our zeal for righteousness turn to passionate fury. And become just as wrong as those to whom we're preaching.

10:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Joe: I knew your answer before I even published my comment. I wish I could know with certainty that homosexuality is a choice and therefore a constitutionally unprotected classification. But I don't know. Are the feelings of intimacy one man feels toward another man (or woman toward woman) really a choice? Would someone really choose to be ostracized by society, to be disowned by his family, to be ex-communicated by the church?

I understand, however, that we are all born with certain desires. To carry Mike Cope's statement one step further, Christians have some things that tempt us a lot. For me, I have a tendency to be very vain, and I would spend all my disposable income on things that satisfy my vanity. But I don't, because I know that although I have certain desires (which may or may not be sinful - I'm not sure), once those desires manifest into action, then I am certain that I have sinned. Yet I struggle with my vain impulses all the time.

The first step is realizing that perhaps homosexuals really are born with these desires. If we can all agree on that, then as Christians we say that we don't want their desires to manifest into sinful action. Well, we all know that with or without government approval, people have homosexual sex. Some people struggle with their desires and suppress the urge to act on them; some people embrace it, and those are the people who want to live just like everyone else. It all goes back to our God-given free will. Why should the laws of the state prevent individuals from exercising that free will?

10:54 AM  
Blogger Al Sturgeon said...

Sincere apologies for any venom/animosity from me, both real and/or perceived. Thanks for stepping up and calling me on it.

As to your question "...can you tell me homosexuality is a lifestyle that has no ill affect on society, minus the anger and violence vented on the gay community (not the fault of any gay/lesbian)?"

This is a difficult question to answer: From my perspective convinced that following Jesus is the way to go, anything that differs from that would have ill effects on some personal level (including, for discussion's sake, heterosexual marriage according to Paul in 1st Corinthians 7).

However, do I think that homosexually-oriented people damage our "society" on a level that would demand legal action? Most definitely not.

I'd stand against rape from any sexual orientation, pedophilia, etc. (because people are entitled protection under the law), but would I legally choose to enforce my perception of God's take on marriage/sex/etc.? No, I wouldn't.

11:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Caveat to my question: Why should the laws of the state prevent individuals from exercising that free will as long as no one else is harmed?

And yes, the issue about children of homosexual partners is the only real harm I can appreciate. But hetereosexual couples obviously have raised children who grow up to be homosexual.

11:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Guys, I swore off commenting on all this because the argument is tiring. But here goes:

Joe,
To clarify what I think you're trying to say: There is a biological family unit that must somehow be maintained in order to ensure societal stability. (You guys can argue all you want with this point, but psychological research and statistics both show that mental & emotional health tend to be better for all who live in this "model." We can always find anecdotes to support the perspective we choose to take.) In recent years, our society (albeit a vocal minority) has placed much more emphasis on helping people feel comfortable in their "chosen" situations than it has on advocating the nuclear family. Is this a problem? Preliminary data says it might be. More longitudinal studies in the next 2-3 decades will be more telling.

Annie,
Great comments. I agree with you on most of what you've said. Legally, I don't think such things should be legistlated. As Christians, we have a certain responsibility to pray for, and even possibly help, those struggling with homosexual urges, be they environmentally or naturally driven. You're spot on with your comments about dealing with our seemingly innate temptations/struggles.
P.S. I have a vanity problem, too. Maybe we should just tell each other we're unattractive and dumb. Ha ha. (You're beautiful and intelligent, who are we kidding.)

Al,
I really don't want to get into the nature/nurture debate because it will never be settled. :) It all acts on a continuum that I am not well prepared to argue. I do believe, however, that our current environment fosters much more confusion about sexuality than anything else (not just homosexual issues, either, let's talk promiscuity, casual sex, commitment, etc). I have no data to support this, but I have a feeling that if I did, we would find these types of confusion and related problems highly correlated with a national turn away from God. If we as Christians don't take a stand according to scripture, we'll be just as guilty as the "world" we so stronly purport to be "not of."


R&B,
Although I can see the point you're making about many things, please, please be advised the homosexuality is not recognized as a disorder of any kind by the Psychological and Psychiatric associations of the world. To say it is without any citation is careless. I have never even heard of SSAD until today, and I am a psychologist. Nevertheless, many still do see it as a disorder. Just keep in mind that there are MANY types of sinful behaviors that are not disorders in the psychiatric sense.

That said, love to all of you! I think we are all learning a lot as a result of this debate/conversation.

12:06 PM  
Blogger Al Sturgeon said...

Amen to Ann once again...

And Joe, I share your preference. I find absolutely no legal foundation for it, however.

This strikes to a personal pet peeve (not you or your comment, but the topic). I can find you two things that should make every Christian nauseous: (1) Petitions w/1000s of names on it trying to ban homosexual people/couples from adopting; and (2) Pictures of children in Departments of Human Services all over America that are up for adoption w/no churches/nuclear couples standing in line to adopt them.

This is why I don't get very excited about the discussion of why certain people shouldn't be allowed to adopt unwanted kids because their situation is not ideal. To use the metaphor of capitalism, once the supply of adoptive nuclear couples outruns the demand, then the discussion of ideal situations has greater merit.

And thanks, Whitney. The nature/nurture debate gives me a headache rather quickly, too! Plus, I agree that sexuality is a topic in need of a lot of work in our culture. I personally don't agree with the historical conclusion that we were "for God" for a long time and then took a turn for the worse 40-50 years ago, so we may differ on what "taking a stand" means. I'd agree, however, that the concept of taking a stand is desirable.

12:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sandi-
I'm very interested in reading your perspective on same-sex couples adopting children, and your take on our concerns about possible harms.

Joe-
I, too, share your preference for placing children in the traditional "noocular" family model. I'm just not sure it should be the only option.

Whit-
You're the smartest and best looking psychologist I know.

1:08 PM  
Blogger Duane said...

I can sense that people want me to post a comment (I think Al called me out by name). I have not had a lot of time to think about this and so I will say up front that what I'm about to write is tentative, and I reserve the right to change my opinion the next time I comment, even if it is only an hour later.

I really believe that Christian political activist groups are misguided in general. If their only intent was to protect our right to practice Christianity, I could go along with supporting them. What I think is misguided is all the effort expended on trying to pass legislation on moral issues, such as the topic under discussion.

Passing laws that prohibit homosexual marriage is not going to prevent or even curtail homosexual sex any more than passing legislation defining marriage as between a man and a woman (which I guess is the same thing as what I just said as it is playing out in legislatures) is going to decrease the divorce rate, single parenthood or teenage pregnancy. Legislation is not going to create moral people. If someone can show me any research that proves otherwise, I stand open to correction on this.

I do think that a couple of people here have mentioned what I consider to be a legitimate "harm," namely the right or lack thereof for homosexual couples to adopt.

I also see “harm” in the possibility that our school curriculum will teach that sexual preference is a genetic predisposition, though that has not been emphatically proven. The nature/nurture issue is not proven. I am not trying to open another can of worms, but the “theory” of evolution is now taught as fact in our public schools though it is not proven either. I say this as one who is not a scientist and does not know the entire evidence for this, but I have heard that there is not hard evidence for cross-species evolution. (I confess my ignorance on this, and wish I were not so uninformed, but I have to make choices about which things I choose to be informed.) I bring it up only by way of illustration of a potential “harm” of homosexuality, gay rights, etc. If I personally as a Christian believe it to be sinful, I have a much harder time talking to/teaching someone who is interested in Christianity (or is a Christian and struggles with it) but does not believe the Bible has anything to say about it because they have wrongly been taught that it is genetic. I see that as only a potential harm, because, thankfully, it is not up to me to convict people’s hearts. That’s God’s job. All the arguing/debating I do is not going to change a person’s heart.

This is where I say that legislation will not help us. We will not be able to change our culture. As it turns more self-centered, we as Christians will stand out as all-the-more counter cultural, but need to do so with love, which is also VERY counter cultural. Selfishness and agape love (i.e. the kind of love God had in sending his son to die for us) are polar opposites.

As I had time to think a bit more about this, I started thinking about times I have changed opinions or have been convicted by someone. It was never by someone I had just met who was trying to condemn me for all of my sins. The people who hold most influence over me are the ones I consider to be close friends, those whom I can trust. It takes a relationship with someone before I would ever be willing to listen to them when they are attempting to point out my flaws to get me to change how I behave. Even then, if they do not do so in love, I will remain defensive, obstinate and unconvinced.

Only God convicts hearts. People will only listen when we have shown them love and care and have established a trusting relationship with them. Legislation does not and cannot do that.

3:43 PM  
Blogger Sandi said...

Sorry guys, I hate it when this happens, but I just spent over an hour responding and due to a computer glitch none of you will ever get to see it. I am too tired and hungry to try to reconstruct everything I said right now. Maybe I will try again tomorrow.

7:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Joe-
Everyone should mimic the President's vernacular as much as possible. God bless Uh-mehr-i-ka.

Sandi-
That's too bad about your computer glitch. Were you typing directly on the blogger? I received an error message once after clicking on "Publish Comment", so after that, if I think I have a long comment, I type it out on Word and paste to the blogger.

5:47 AM  
Blogger Sandi said...

Okay, I'm going to break this up into smaller posts so I don't waste any more time.

First, the lampshade is a paraphrase from a written comment that a classmate from law school made in a gay marriage discussion. Obviously it made an impression since I'm still quoting it!

Second, as to the nature versus nurture question, I agree with Whitney that it will never be satisfactorily answered. Most such questions are usually most accurately answered "both/and" rather than choosing one of the two. False dichotomy. And, from my view, it doesn't matter. I don't tend to accept biological explanations for behavior I think is harmful. So to me, the difference of opinion is over whether same-sex relationships are harmful or not rather than whether they could be okay only if people "couldn't help it."

To respond to DeJon's original question, I think that individual people can certainly both oppose homosexuality and not be in favor of traditional gender roles. On a macro level, though, I think that the issue of homosexuality is derivative of gender.

4:30 PM  
Blogger Sandi said...

I find Joe's essentialism (women are nurturing, men are strong and protect) to be inaccurate with respect to many, perhaps most, of the people I have known in my life.

The typical response to this is that there are differences between women and men. Well, sure. No one is disputing that there are at least some physiological differences. There are plenty of debates about how extensive the differences are, and how innate they are. But to me, none of this is as important as the significance that our culture assigns to whatever differences are manifest, and whether such differences are used as an excuse to subordinate women.

I also find that anyone can find an anecdote to support pretty much any parade of horribles that they want to establish. So I think that while anecdotes can be useful, they have to be validated by other evidence. For example, the breast-feeding story Joe mentioned. I don't disbelieve that the story occurred, but I don't think that standing alone it is an indictment of same-sex parenting or says much about gay parents as a group. I imagine that plenty of men have been jealous of the bond between their child and their female partner as well and don't see why lesbian moms would be any more susceptible to it than straight (or gay) dads.

The essential difference of opinion may be that I don't think that caretaking has to be gendered. I believe that my husband will be just as good (if not better) a caretaker than I will be. We are different people and will undoubtedly bring different things to our parenting. But those differences (other than a physical thing like breastfeeding) are not correlated with gender. If you don't think that caretaking has to be gendered, or that people need a gendered "role model" so that they don't accidentally start wearing the wrong clothes or what have you, then the "ideal family" argument is completely eviscerated because all it amounts to is that two people who provide a stable, loving, supportive home are better than one. I don't think (as I will discuss in part 3) that those people necessarily need to be in an intimate relationship. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

4:45 PM  

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